Michael Duignan interview part 3: O'Connor Park lease row, senior/U20 hurling priority, Liam Kearns sad passing

In your first year, a fierce row erupted with Tullamore GAA Club over the terms of the lease for O'Connor Park and it only ended with a revised agreement. That was a fairly hairy few months?

“A couple of years I would say. That was one of the toughest times of our term. The lease was there and that is fair enough but we felt the terms of the lease meant there was no control from an Offaly GAA point of view. It was CPI linked and it was going up and up. You had no control about where it was going to finish.

“The naming rights thing stuck in our throat. That was never signed off properly. Tullamore wouldn't allow the naming rights with Bord na Mona at the time unless they got a cut, I think they looked for 10%. We were very unhappy about that. It doesn't matter what it was, if it was 1%, the spirit of it was wrong.

“We went to try and address it and Tullamore dug in their heels which they had a right to. It was very tough and there is no point in saying it wasn't.

“It was very very tiresome. There was a lot of legal stuff going on, a lot of meetings, Leinster, Croke Park, barristers, solicitors and eventually we got into a process. We had one long day in the court and we sorted it out which was a huge relief. Tullamore are still getting a good rent but the increase is capped at 2% per annum. It is over and done with. It is paid monthly now, it was paid once or twice a year. I think it is a very fair document now and I am delighted that it is over with.

“It created a rift between Tullamore and the County Board that I never wanted. I always said this, at the end of the day the players and the teams are what is important. I don't think it should ever have went to where it did. I think it could have been sorted out easier but that is easy to say now and no one was willing to give in. It got tough. I am delighted it is sorted and I am delighted, or I think that I never fell out with anyone in the Tullamore club away from the few people who were very involved on their side. Across the board, I am living near the town and particularly the players, it never affected their performance with Offaly or relationship with any of the lads.”

Initially the County Board withheld lease money and it erupted from there. It didn't look good but was that the right way to go or did it have to be done to bring things to a head?

“Well we actually didn't have it at the start and that is where it kicked off from. We looked for a grace period from Tullamore because we didn't have the money and Tullamore wouldn't give it to us. That is when we started looking at the lease. I think if they had given it to us, it may have come up further down the road but it may not because there is so much going on and you get so focused on other things. Even though before we came in, we said the lease looks lopsided as far as we are concerned but at the same time, if Tullamore had said no problem, we understand, Covid is there. . . They took a different view and in fairness it is their club to run and the rent was due.

“Once they took their stand, we took our stand. You can have regrets in everything but when we looked at it more and more, there was a lot of it we weren't happy with. We have taken back control at least. We couldn't do anything there without Tullamore's permission. We couldn't do anything commercially or any other way but now we can. I still think it is a very good deal for Tullamore and they deserve it. They are getting a good rent and it helps their development. They have a big club there.

“As far as I am concerned it is over and done with and there is no issue from our point of view. Myself, Dervill, Colm and Christy were the main ones dealing with it and it is over. I am glad it is over.”

I remember meeting a board officer one day and he was adamant that they would hand back the keys. I met a Tullamore officer a week later and he was saying, “we'll take back the keys and lock the gates on them”. It was going too far at that stage?

“It did go to an extreme and it probably had to sort it because there was such extreme differences between people's mindsets. A lot of strong personalties across the board. At stages, that was considered and we would have also looked at pursuing the option of buying it. From an Offaly point of view, that would have been the ideal solution. There is so much money invested up there but looking at both points, neither of them (handing in or taking back the keys) was the right thing. How were they going to maintain it? It would have been a disaster for both.

“Mediation was tried with Leinster Council. Tullamore will probably feel the same, that it was a very tough time for everyone involved. It is in the past and the way it is done, it is in the past forever. That is the lease now and it works for both sides.”

The minor and U-20 hurlers took on a life of its own over the last three years, bringing the county to its feet. That was huge?

“Massive. If you asked me what is the most satisfying thing, I would say getting back to the Liam McCarthy Cup is (in senior hurling). That was such a journey. Seeing where we were in the Christy Ring and my concern before I got in was that if we didn't act, we mightn't have a hurling team shortly. Who was going to want to hurl with Offaly with what was involved in it? Then to see the first year up close where we were at and we couldn't win it. Michael Fennelly was in as manager, huge experience, a huge man, and just the standard of hurling was really really poor. Then to go and win it the following year, and the following year then in the Joe McDonagh, we were badly beaten by Carlow in O'Connor Park. A very poor performance. You would be sort of saying where are we going, like we are two and a half years into this project now.

“While there was a lot of lads very young still and they had come in at a low base, you are judged by results and the pressure was on us all, When Johnny (Kelly) took over (as senior hurling manager) and brought in a few new people around the place, it was huge. I do always say everyone around the place has to be mad and passionate about Offaly, whether the kitmen or logistics, S and C, they all have jobs to do but the number one thing is they have to be passionate for Offaly. We had a lot of outsiders but they had that and the U20 hurling management and backroom team had that as well.

“That was being built over the previous while. It then started to come together and to lose the Joe McDonagh Cup final (2023 to Carlow) was a massive setback. Albeit it was a great game but you could still see the weaknesses. This year I would have felt huge pressure on before I was going to try and win that competition and with my son Brian playing as well. All the lads out around me as well, Ciaran Burke, Ross Ravenhill, Dan Ravenhill, Dan and Sam Bourke, Mark Troy. I am a bit like that, I wear my heart on my sleeve so winning that was huge.

“Then to see the other thing (minor/U20) building, to see that gradually coming out of where it was. It was a tough, tough three or four years to get it going in the right direction. Even during the league in 2023, we were six or seven points down against Kildare, we got out of there and won Division 2 and went into the Joe Mc final and lost it. It was a journey but to see what was coming up and starting to build, the crowd behind them, which hadn't transferred to the senior team and still hasn't, but it will in time. I am not concerned about that but to see these wizard, skilful, athletic characters, personalties, building behind and then being integrated into the senior last year.

“No more than what I said about the minor footballers coming into the U-20 side, that made all the difference to the senior hurling team. The likes of Cathal King, Colin Spain, Dan Bourke last year. And Adam (Screeney) started to come into it as the year went on and there is quite a few more going in now. Brecon (Kavanagh) joined the panel last year as well. This is the dream starting to come together and that underage journey has been fantastic to see. The crowds. The initiatives we came up with, buses and tickets. A lot of work went into it and it has brought great joy, it has given a genuine lift to the county. It is fantastic to be growing our own heroes in the county again. I am not singling out Adam but he is one of the biggest names in the country. He is nearly bigger than any senior player.

“People say keep him away from that but I think it is brilliant. Let him out there. He is a down to earth ordinary fellow who can handle things, no more than Cormac Egan having that huge reputation in football. It is great that we have them.

“I got a phone call from a friend of mine in Kilkenny the week of the All-Ireland U-20 final and he said he had three young lads. Teenagers and big into Kilkenny and they never looked for much but they asked him to get three Offaly jerseys for the final. He said me walking down to an All-Ireland between Offaly and Tipp and my three young lads in Offaly jerseys. It probably summed up where the thing was at around the country.

“Then there was the Hurling for Cancer game. Like Liam Hoare playing after getting over his illness. What a man and his family. Beautiful people. The Morrissey's were there from Limerick, Patrick Horkan, Lee Chin, all those boys were there. When the game was over, where was the biggest queue for autographs? Adam Screeney. The lads really took a lot from that. Brian (Duignan) and the lads were there and they went for a night out with them which I encouraged them to do. I said you are playing a championship match next week or whenever but you won't get this opportunity again. The Limerick lads had a big 16 bed place booked in Kilkenny and I said go down and see. They have only two arms and two legs and a head like the rest of us, you can't be overawed by these lads.

“It has been brilliant. It is a little bit hard to believe. Where we were and then to play four All-Ireland's four years in a row. To see the passion and the crowds back.

“I think nearly the opposite to you, people have nearly forgotten how bad things were or have chosen to forget. They have moved on and that is good. That is why I didn't go back over any comparisons (with before his time at the helm) the other night (at Offaly GAA Convention). There is no point and we have moved on.”

If the U-20s hadn't won in 2024, the pressure on them would have been horrendous this year?

“It would and it is great to have got there. We went to Congress last year and we supported Cork's motion about the 60 hour rule rather than the seven day rule (where players can play a senior game 60 hours rather than seven days after an U-20 one). That could have massive implications this year. Even the sixty hours is going to have to be managed. Lads could play on a Wednesday and a weekend but if it wasn't changed, if they played senior, they were gone from the U20 team.

“We are balancing this. We are gone to Leinster for the first time in years, we are going to be favourites for relegation the way things are. You have Antrim, Dublin, Wexford, Galway, Kilkenny and ourselves. My view is we are going to try and get to a Leinster final or be in the top three. That is where you have to aim but we are going to be in a very intense period of hurling that time of year with our U20s and seniors. If we hadn't won U20 last year, there would have been huge pressure. 8 of this year's (U20) team are on the (senior) panel now and we are going to be trying to manage that throughout the league. Blooding these lads but minding them as well plus a heavy schedule of matches in the championship. Especially when you are playing these top teams in the championship. These are hard physical matches and we are trying to protect our players. That balancing act is going to be very fine and the hard question could be there again. Who comes first, the 20s or our seniors.

“Those questions may have to be answered and calls made as time goes go but it is a good complaint to have. It is a healthy one.”

Is staying up in senior more of a priority for 2025 than retaining the U-20 title?

“I would say our senior team has to be the priority but having said that, the public and a lot of Offaly people would be saying we have ten of our team (U20s still there), we have Dan Ravenhill back, that is 11, he would have been playing bar injured so we are filling three spaces and going at it again. It is a couple of weeks really. It can be over very quickly in the U20. You win a Leinster and you are in an All-Ireland final so it is a few matches in a few weeks. You are dependant on injuries and everything else. Ruari Kelly had a big shoulder operation and is back now. Dan Ravenhill has had a good run, injury free for the last few months. It is incredible to see, six of the back seven are underage. We have two new midfielders to find and two forwards, there is ten of the first fifteen there.”

I am sure there were issues with managers over your five years but if there were, they remained behind closed doors and the public knew nothing about them. I presume it wasn't always a smooth ship?

“No and I suppose if we go to the football side of the house, we are painting a great picture but I have to say the last year senior football was very disappointing. We had John Maughan there when I came in and John had done a great job from where he had started from. John was going to stay as long as he wanted to, he stayed two years when we came in and it came to a natural conclusion.

“The first year, he wasn't sure he would stay on, the second year Tomas O'Se came up and we tried to freshen things up. We had an okay sort of year and the following year Liam Kearns came in.

“Talking to managers and dealing with them is tough but having played at a high level and maybe being still very close to the modern game because of the Sunday Game, I know that is hurling, but it is the same principle, there is a natural respect for those people.
“When Liam came on board, I knew instinctively but you are trying to do things quietly. I had a chat with Liam Sheedy (Tipperary) about hurling and it broke the next day. I nearly had to say to the lads that if I go to meet someone, I have the power to appoint them. Dervill, Colm and myself is three of the five that is on committees but that is not really fair on the lads either. That is the way you have to approach it. I see these counties saying apply for the job but that is not how it works in reality. It is too public and if you are after someone and some other county is after them, it is a messy way to go about it. You have to try and do it quietly and efficiently if you want to get the right person. Liam (Kearns) was in his first term and that (his sudden death a few months into the job) was a huge setback. Obviously it was way bigger for his family but from a GAA point of view, it was huge. You could see the strides we were making in a very short space of time. We went on then and beat Longford, beat Meath, drew with Louth in Croke Park and lost in extra time. We almost made it to a Leinster final.

“We were really going places. We had a number of injuries with the U20s. Cormac (Egan) and John (Furlong) had an awful time, Kieran Dolan had a bad leg break and a few more were injured. Paddy Dunican had gone away, a few things like that, so our progress had stalled a bit but it was starting to come back together. Liam was pulling the whole thing together and then he passed.

“When that year finished, emotionally the lads were in a bad place. Everyone was drained. Declan (Kelly) was available to step up after the U20 and it is fair to say, last year was a very challenging one for everyone. We recognised that at the end of the year. The balance across the management team wasn't there so we brought in Mickey Harte, we brought in Luke Bree who I think is one of the best young coaches in the country. And Eanna Shalvey, the S and C was with Cork hurlers last year, a super guy. We tried to bolster it. I think we have lost a year or two but to go back to your question, there was quite a bit of managing in that. I think if you are straight with people, tell them the way it is and have the straight conversation. . . It doesn't have to be public, and have a bit of respect for one another.

“The hurling side was a bit less complicated. I know Michael Fennelly went. That was a tough meeting to have. I drove down to Kilkenny and met him. I said we are looking at going in a different direction with the team. He would have liked to have stayed for another year but that wasn't there. It was done quietly and efficiently. He moved onto a new job and we all wish Michael well. A great fellow. He probably didn't have the experience, he was only starting out with county, we needed someone with experience. Johnny (Kelly) has a huge wealth of experience. He had been there as a coach so there was continuity there.

“There were a couple of changes there as well over the couple of years. Even now, Seamus Callanan is coming in this year and we did that nice and quietly as well. We had a few chats in the background and he is on board now. Even getting down to your s and c guys, your nutritionist, your medical team, you are involved in all those conversations and trying to learn from mistakes made in other years.

“We went in and did a review of nutrition and ended up spending way more money on it but we are happy with where we are at and what the players are getting from it. The same with our medical set up and s and c. You have a huge responsibility to these players to give them the best support you can so all of that is time consuming and part of the job but also huge learning in it. It was good and you have to get on with people. I might fall out with the odd person but in general, I get on well with people and bring them with you.”

You have the capacity to fall out with people and then fall back in?

“You can have a disagreement and I wouldn't take any of the stuff personally. Some of them were tricky, even at underage level with managers. They have their own minds and opinions and you sometimes have to say, this is not the way we are doing things. These are the decisions we make. You are supporting the players and panel sizes and numbers.

“And there are differences. We carried 39 with the U20 hurlers last year and another time you might be saying to a senior manager, we only want 32. They might say what about them. Well we are trying to develop players for the future, that is a different agenda over there. That is different than here. That is kind of thinking outside the box and doing the right thing.”